it's only easy to say that it's a decision for people who have confidence in themselves and high emotional intelligence, which is rarely the case in the community
also i'm not sure if you remember but when you first joined the community, the approach i described was the one i used to interact with you and katie appeared almost immediatelly (and all credit goes to you), but it's hard to say if it would be easy for you to just decide what you are if you first were system forced by someone for weeks or months
2:24 PM
it's easy to take your situation for granted and think it should be easy for everyone, but you don't know what their experience and baggage is, and you don't know how you would develop having same experience and baggage
Although i understand your point and i agree, what i meant is that when you say "discover" you are implying that people are already a certain way and they discover it when interacting with other people. Instead what i propose is that people are not, until they interact with other people. When that happens, they either get shaped or actively decide what they are, and then stick to that. I didnt actually mean that it is a conscious choice, my argument was about if that previously existed or not.(edited)
3:18 PM
I wasnt making an argument against your approach either, i know it works.
3:18 PM
It was just a clarification arround that specific point.
I used the wikihow guide tbh since it was the first on google and i like following steps... i got through the steps really quickly — the part i had to sleep on was visualizing his movements, but after i slept on it it came to me immediately.
So it took two days for eishi to fully appear. I haven't imposed him yet, which is the last step, but i've been working on it
I do think guides can be very overcomplicated, but for someone like me who likes following steps, they're very useful
I disagree that everyone would do better without guides and guidance. There are people out there who created tulpas without guides or with very little guidance, but this simply doesn't work for everyone. For those who instantly and intuitively have headmates, it may seem hard for them to understand why others would take so long or have so much trouble. But if it worked the same (same meaning easily, quickly) for those struggling people, they wouldn't be struggling. It's not the guides that made them struggle.
aya i did bring up that yes it is also system forcing
and i think you missed my point about guidance from people being the key to tulpa development, just not the kind that is is usually considered guidance. more practical and reassuring, treating tulpas as people, not as some sort of homework
I'm not sure what you propose a new host do, when they do not have a tulpa yet. Their tulpa cannot join the chat at that point. Or what would even be considered a tulpa without other people's concepts?(edited)
when you say without other people's concepts do you mean how they can make a tulpa without understanding the concept of having a tulpa as a separate person in their head?
well i would assume they already know what a tulpa is, otherwise how would they know they want to make one haha
4:37 PM
regarding tulpa not being able to join the chat, that's the interesting part, i did do it with 10 people so far and unfortunately i had to invite them to dms or a private server, because people that don't have the reassurance approach were being distracting to the process. let's say someone asks "how do i make my tulpa speak?", people usually write 10 different opinions how they do it, their life stories etc. that's not helpful and just confusing.
but with reassuring approach, you can get a tulpa speak very quickly, and the host's brain just figures it out themself. then the doubts can pop up, and again, when there are people around who don't use this approach they write essays about doubts that just distract and reinforce the idea of the doubt.
reassuring is a process and eventually tulpa stabilises
i think you are a very considerate and helpful person
4:41 PM
also i'm not claiming it would work for everyone. people have different life situations, they can have problems getting out of bed and socialise. of course i accept there might be situations when someone is similarly blocked from committing or even letting themself have a tulpa, and it might be a bigger issue
The initial concept of a tulpa, which people will hear about before they decide to make one, tends to frontload people with fantastical ideas. The early community started with the concept and as a result they had ideas about tulpa speech sounding alien or fully imposed, being fully alien/separate in other ways. The idea of wonderland switching was born from the concept of tulpas being a separate person with a separate consciousness.
The community's current understanding which we try to teach others came from years of discussion and experience sharing. We've observed that without teaching people how things work, they quickly fall back into those fantastical and unachievable beliefs.
Leiko
i think you are a very considerate and helpful person
but for people like that i think it wouldn't work to use a guide either
4:42 PM
Oh that's good to hear I'll try not to interrupt when you respond to someone asking for help though
@Kei Wendt - jump
please don't take it like that, in a community noone should feel they shouldn't speak in certain circumstances. i'm just explaining my approach
From our point of view, we see the people who you helped with their tulpas, disappear or return to saying their tulpa isn't vocal. So we are unsure that it was successful or a sufficient replacement for other approaches. If you DMed them, can you comment on how well it went for them after the first tulpa chat?
it's interesting that you bring up understanding that came from years of discussion and experience, and yet there are loads of people who struggle for weeks, months, or years who try to base their tulpamancy on that. maybe that approach is not for everyone?
4:55 PM
hahahaha
@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump
forgot the name
i think it's fine explaining some of your thoughts about how tulpamancy works later on, but i personally don't think it is necessary to get the first breakthroughs, and it might even get on the way of it. it's the breakthroughs that are the foundation of the practice, not information
To be clear, we do think chatting with a new tulpa is good and helpful
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Leiko
regarding tulpa not being able to join the chat, that's the interesting part, i did do it with 10 people so far and unfortunately i had to invite them to dms or a private server, because people that don't have the reassurance approach were being distracting to the process. let's say someone asks "how do i make my tulpa speak?", people usually write 10 different opinions how they do it, their life stories etc. that's not helpful and just confusing.
but with reassuring approach, you can get a tulpa speak very quickly, and the host's brain just figures it out themself. then the doubts can pop up, and again, when there are people around who don't use this approach they write essays about doubts that just distract and reinforce the idea of the doubt.
reassuring is a process and eventually tulpa stabilises
I do think that reasuring can help a lot, but i also think you can easily get doubts again very fast by seeing other people doubt and present weird ideas or methods. One might think, wow, people are having such a hard time, im not sure i can do it anymore, maybe im just lying to myself. (Completely missing the point that the internal experience is what matters)
5:01 PM
For example, I learnt switching instantly because i didnt identify it as switching and when i discovered it was I didnt care about other peoples experiences with it, it just happened at some point, if i was told how it was from the beggining it would have probably been much harder.
5:01 PM
Thats the fundamental thing i believe its wrong with how we usually teach.(edited)
5:02 PM
We make it so hard
Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)
I do think that reasuring can help a lot, but i also think you can easily get doubts again very fast by seeing other people doubt and present weird ideas or methods. One might think, wow, people are having such a hard time, im not sure i can do it anymore, maybe im just lying to myself. (Completely missing the point that the internal experience is what matters)
Conversely I think a lot of people see other people's experiences as more compelling and legitimate and feel fake by comparison. So they doubt themselves because their experiences aren't as compelling as they think it should be
It doesn't have to be anything more than "wow, a tulpa is talking in chat" or "the tulpa talking in chat is switched in, woah." They build a concept in their head about how concrete of an experience that must be.
And the experiences that gives them doubt: their tulpa only speaks when spoken to, their tulpa's responses feel like parroting, they don't feel very separate etc
A good example of this is people claiming their tulpas were doing stuff in wonderland while they were doing stuff IRL, and its just them confabulating a story.
If someone just tells them, the response that felt like parroting really is their tulpa, they may just feel more doubt. Because it didn't feel like what they wanted
Aya
If someone just tells them, the response that felt like parroting really is their tulpa, they may just feel more doubt. Because it didn't feel like what they wanted
But if you tell them the truth, which is that you must accept that response as coming for your tulpa for your tulpa to develop more over time and gain separation.
5:12 PM
They will both get the "oh yeah its my tulpa" and have no doubt.
Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)
But if you tell them the truth, which is that you must accept that response as coming for your tulpa for your tulpa to develop more over time and gain separation.
Thats the fundamental thing i believe its wrong with how we usually teach.
@Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し) - jump
yeah i agree
Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)
For example, I learnt switching instantly because i didnt identify it as switching and when i discovered it was I didnt care about other peoples experiences with it, it just happened at some point, if i was told how it was from the beggining it would have probably been much harder.
If someone then comes and word-glitters me into thinking that i should feel dissociated from my body or puts crazy narrative that i should also be confabulating on wonderland while other sysmates front i might have doubts again... And that is also a big problem of the community.
Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)
What exactly where you debating with kitkat/leiko?
If someone just tells them, the response that felt like parroting really is their tulpa, they may just feel more doubt. Because it didn't feel like what they wanted
@Aya - jump
why do they know what it means for a response to feel like parroting? you can't be concerned by a problem you have no idea about
For me it was just: katie wanted to eat something, they took over and took it, then came back to my room. I felt like i became them. That was my experience. If i was trying to relate this with other peoples swithing experience and actively learn i would have gone crazy learning.(edited)
Aya
We're in favour of explaining how things work which Leiko/Kitkat said was a problem
"How things work" is precisely what i call word-glitter.(edited)
5:22 PM
I believe is an unsolvable problem in the community though. Experienced members want to put names to communicate feelings and newbies suffer from those labels.
Leiko
If someone just tells them, the response that felt like parroting really is their tulpa, they may just feel more doubt. Because it didn't feel like what they wanted
@Aya - jump
why do they know what it means for a response to feel like parroting? you can't be concerned by a problem you have no idea about
Without the term "parroting" they will say "was it my tulpa or just me/I think it was just me." The idea is the same whether the word parroting is known or not
aya do you know what happens if you reassure someone it's part of the process without making a big deal out of it and putting a term for it, without people around talking about parrotnoia?
5:26 PM
they treat it as a part of the process and don't get stuck
5:27 PM
but if they had breakthrough experiences which you can have flashes of quite early, they always have an experience to look back to
5:27 PM
and see what they work towards
Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)
But if you tell them the truth, which is that you must accept that response as coming for your tulpa for your tulpa to develop more over time and gain separation.
That is not "how things work". In my understanding "How things work" refers to how things should behave to be what they are suposed to be. That is, labeling.
Putting words to stuff.
5:30 PM
switching feels like this and this and this, and if you dont tick the boxes its not switching.
5:31 PM
Im not traveling outside of EU i dont need to show you my passport for you to confirm that my experience was in fact switching.
If this is the case that would be great and things would be a lot easier. Telling people it's part of the process and early experiences can feel like XYZ and you can do ABC to help, this is what we are in favour of doing
i often show the pendulum method first because it's great in showing what it feels like to feel someone else's agency and presence, it's a great foundation
5:33 PM
but some people don't need it
Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)
That is not "how things work". In my understanding "How things work" refers to how things should behave to be what they are suposed to be. That is, labeling.
Putting words to stuff.
don't worry this year i'm the minister of tulpamancy, i lowered down the bar. but expect no nepotism
Leiko
i often show the pendulum method first because it's great in showing what it feels like to feel someone else's agency and presence, it's a great foundation
I think the ability/knowing to assign the movement to someone is more important than to feel the alienness of the pendulum moving. Just feeling the pendulum move on its own may cause people to think all their tulpa's actions should feel as "other" and out of control as that
I think the ability/knowing to assign the movement to someone is more important than to feel the alienness of the pendulum moving. Just feeling the pendulum move on its own may cause people to think all their tulpa's actions should feel as "other" and out of control as that
@Aya - jump
it can also very quickly give you the feeling of someone else's presence
Desting 😎 (Con Cat)-(おひたし、お浸し)
Do you know how to use a pendulum to communicate with (insert whatever superstition here)?
Yeah i use a pendulum for other things
I won't say exactly what because i'm a bit embarrassed of my religious practices lmao but yeah
Aya
I think the ability/knowing to assign the movement to someone is more important than to feel the alienness of the pendulum moving. Just feeling the pendulum move on its own may cause people to think all their tulpa's actions should feel as "other" and out of control as that
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